Topics

Flywheel cap screws


Mick O'Connor
 

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick


Ron Milan
 

Mick:  I would think that the weight penalty would be infinitesimal the rest would be up to you (in my humble opinion)!

Ron M
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909@...>
To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
Sent: Wed, Feb 17, 2021 10:04 am
Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick






Jay Scheevel
 

Where are you located, Mick? If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick


Mick O'Connor
 

Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room

On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Where are you located, Mick? If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick












jabcamit@...
 

try running one in to make sure the thread doesn't  start binding before you reach grip length.  If it does you could always saw the end off bindsaw the end off?  Or try https://www.lasaero.com?   If the holes are blind  (don't know) avoid false torquing against hydraulic lock when tightening.


Jay Scheevel
 

Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.

As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room


On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Where are you located, Mick? If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick












Mick O'Connor
 

Jay,
Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
If I go 1 3/4” length, it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
So back to my questions :
is a plain shank beneficial ?
Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
I’m thinking both are OK

On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.

As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room


On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Where are you located, Mick? If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick























jabcamit@...
 

Kays (find them on Ebay) also sell UNF screws to B18.3 (1960) specification and in small quantities. Unlike LAS they won't be traceable stock. So if you go that route might be worth getting a few extra and  testing before fitting in your engine - just in case a chinese copy has got into the mix. Torque one up to  (say) 50% more than Jab torque and make sure the head doesn't fall off.  I think they also do  lower profile button headed screws if you have a height clearance issue.


Jay Scheevel
 

Hi Mick,

The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Jay,
Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
If I go 1 3/4” length, it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
So back to my questions :
is a plain shank beneficial ?
Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
I’m thinking both are OK

On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.

As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room


On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Where are you located, Mick? If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick























Mick O'Connor
 

Jay,
Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .

On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Hi Mick,

The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Jay,
Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
If I go 1 3/4” length, it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
So back to my questions :
is a plain shank beneficial ?
Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
I’m thinking both are OK

On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.

As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room


On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Where are you located, Mick? If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick


































George Andre
 

I bought the kit last year and from this discussion the bolts supplied (1.25”) will not be long enough to engage sufficient threads. So I need 6 replacements of the 1.75” length. So whoever is finding a source please let me know or put me down for a set. Thx. George André. 3300 s/n 987
Glandre@me.com , St Louis MO

On Feb 17, 2021, at 13:31, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jay,
Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .


On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Hi Mick,

The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Jay,
Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
If I go 1 3/4” length, it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
So back to my questions :
is a plain shank beneficial ?
Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
I’m thinking both are OK

On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:
Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.

As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room


On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Where are you located, Mick? If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick






































Larry Wheat
 

Look into the Nordlock upgrade. It is posted on Jabiru Australia website. Cheers

On Feb 18, 2021, at 4:02 PM, George Andre <glandre@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I bought the kit last year and from this discussion the bolts supplied (1.25”) will not be long enough to engage sufficient threads. So I need 6 replacements of the 1.75” length. So whoever is finding a source please let me know or put me down for a set. Thx. George André. 3300 s/n 987
Glandre@me.com , St Louis MO
On Feb 17, 2021, at 13:31, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jay,
Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .


On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Hi Mick,

The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Jay,
Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
If I go 1 3/4” length, it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
So back to my questions :
is a plain shank beneficial ?
Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
I’m thinking both are OK

On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:
Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.

As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room


On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Where are you located, Mick? If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick










































Mick O'Connor
 

George,
You are correct about 1 1/4” cap screws do not give enough grip with the extra thickness of the plate and Nordlok (4.5mm).
1 1/2” length will compensate for the extra 4.5mm.
I’ve sourced correct specification 12.9 high tensile cap screws in 1 3/4” length with a 14mm plain shank.
1 3/4” gives about 5mm clearance at the bottom of the thread.

Mick

On 19 Feb 2021, at 00:02, George Andre <glandre@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

I bought the kit last year and from this discussion the bolts supplied (1.25”) will not be long enough to engage sufficient threads. So I need 6 replacements of the 1.75” length. So whoever is finding a source please let me know or put me down for a set. Thx. George André. 3300 s/n 987
Glandre@me.com , St Louis MO
On Feb 17, 2021, at 13:31, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:

Jay,
Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .


On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Hi Mick,

The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Jay,
Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
If I go 1 3/4” length, it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
So back to my questions :
is a plain shank beneficial ?
Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
I’m thinking both are OK

On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:
Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.

As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room


On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@scheevel.com> wrote:

Where are you located, Mick? If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
Mick










































George Andre
 

Jay, I have a couple of Fastenet dealers nearby so will try that, BUT, what exactly is the description? (size, head style, etc.) In my experience, one does not want to tell them it is for an airplane as they think this brings on some unwanted liability. In the past I have had to say it is for an experimental tractor I am building. thanks
George

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 02:43:12 AM CST, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909@...> wrote:


George,
You are correct about  1 1/4” cap screws do not give enough grip with the  extra thickness of the plate and Nordlok (4.5mm).
1 1/2” length will compensate for the extra 4.5mm.
I’ve sourced correct specification 12.9 high tensile cap screws in 1 3/4” length with a 14mm plain shank.
1 3/4” gives about 5mm clearance at the bottom of the thread.

Mick


> On 19 Feb 2021, at 00:02, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:
>
> I bought the kit last year and from this discussion the bolts supplied (1.25”) will not be long enough to engage sufficient threads. So I need 6 replacements of the 1.75” length. So whoever is finding a source please let me know or put me down for a set. Thx. George André. 3300 s/n 987
> Glandre@... , St Louis MO
>> On Feb 17, 2021, at 13:31, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>
>> Jay,
>> Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .
>>
>>
>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mick,
>>>
>>> The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>
>>> Jay,
>>> Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
>>> If I go 1 3/4” length,  it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
>>> So back to my questions :
>>> is a plain shank beneficial ?
>>> Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
>>> I’m thinking both are OK
>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.
>>>>
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
>>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>
>>>> Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
>>>> I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
>>>> Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
>>>> Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
>>>> The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are you located, Mick?  If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
>>>>> To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
>>>>> Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
>>>>> Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
>>>>> The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
>>>>> Mick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>
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>
>







Mick O'Connor
 

George,
It depends on what size screw your crank takes. Could be 1/4, 5/16 or 3/8.
Length can be 1 1/4, 1 1/2 or 1 3/4.
The 1 3/4 only if using spreader washer and Nordlock washers.
Spec is 12.9 ,  ANSI B18-3, 1960 series.

Mick

On 19 Feb 2021, at 13:48, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:

Jay, I have a couple of Fastenet dealers nearby so will try that, BUT, what exactly is the description? (size, head style, etc.) In my experience, one does not want to tell them it is for an airplane as they think this brings on some unwanted liability. In the past I have had to say it is for an experimental tractor I am building. thanks
George

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 02:43:12 AM CST, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909@...> wrote:


George,
You are correct about  1 1/4” cap screws do not give enough grip with the  extra thickness of the plate and Nordlok (4.5mm).
1 1/2” length will compensate for the extra 4.5mm.
I’ve sourced correct specification 12.9 high tensile cap screws in 1 3/4” length with a 14mm plain shank.
1 3/4” gives about 5mm clearance at the bottom of the thread.

Mick


> On 19 Feb 2021, at 00:02, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:
>
> I bought the kit last year and from this discussion the bolts supplied (1.25”) will not be long enough to engage sufficient threads. So I need 6 replacements of the 1.75” length. So whoever is finding a source please let me know or put me down for a set. Thx. George André. 3300 s/n 987
> Glandre@... , St Louis MO
>> On Feb 17, 2021, at 13:31, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>
>> Jay,
>> Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .
>>
>>
>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mick,
>>>
>>> The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>
>>> Jay,
>>> Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
>>> If I go 1 3/4” length,  it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
>>> So back to my questions :
>>> is a plain shank beneficial ?
>>> Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
>>> I’m thinking both are OK
>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.
>>>>
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
>>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>
>>>> Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
>>>> I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
>>>> Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
>>>> Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
>>>> The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are you located, Mick?  If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
>>>>> To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
>>>>> Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
>>>>> Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
>>>>> The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
>>>>> Mick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>







Jay Scheevel
 

From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Andre
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 6:49 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io; main@JabCamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

 

Jay, I have a couple of Fastenet dealers nearby so will try that, BUT, what exactly is the description? (size, head style, etc.) In my experience, one does not want to tell them it is for an airplane as they think this brings on some unwanted liability. In the past I have had to say it is for an experimental tractor I am building. thanks

George

 

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 02:43:12 AM CST, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909@...> wrote:

 

 

George,
You are correct about  1 1/4” cap screws do not give enough grip with the  extra thickness of the plate and Nordlok (4.5mm).
1 1/2” length will compensate for the extra 4.5mm.
I’ve sourced correct specification 12.9 high tensile cap screws in 1 3/4” length with a 14mm plain shank.
1 3/4” gives about 5mm clearance at the bottom of the thread.

Mick


> On 19 Feb 2021, at 00:02, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:
>
> I bought the kit last year and from this discussion the bolts supplied (1.25”) will not be long enough to engage sufficient threads. So I need 6 replacements of the 1.75” length. So whoever is finding a source please let me know or put me down for a set. Thx. George André. 3300 s/n 987
> Glandre@... , St Louis MO
>> On Feb 17, 2021, at 13:31, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>
>> Jay,
>> Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .
>>
>>
>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mick,
>>>
>>> The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>
>>> Jay,
>>> Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
>>> If I go 1 3/4” length,  it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
>>> So back to my questions :
>>> is a plain shank beneficial ?
>>> Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
>>> I’m thinking both are OK
>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.
>>>>
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
>>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>
>>>> Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
>>>> I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
>>>> Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
>>>> Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
>>>> The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are you located, Mick?  If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
>>>>> To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
>>>>> Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
>>>>> Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
>>>>> The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
>>>>> Mick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>






George Andre
 

Found what I need at Fastenet, ordering by mail and all of 51 cents each. 
Now to remove the old ones that are glued in without breaking one off in the crankshaft. 
George

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 09:49:44 AM CST, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:


Have a look at these and see if you can find what you need.

 

https://www.fastenal.com/product/fasteners/sockets/socket-cap-screws/600040?categoryId=600040&level=3&isExpanded=true&productFamilyId=30892

 

Jay

 

From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Andre
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 6:49 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io; main@JabCamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

 

Jay, I have a couple of Fastenet dealers nearby so will try that, BUT, what exactly is the description? (size, head style, etc.) In my experience, one does not want to tell them it is for an airplane as they think this brings on some unwanted liability. In the past I have had to say it is for an experimental tractor I am building. thanks

George

 

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 02:43:12 AM CST, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909@...> wrote:

 

 

George,
You are correct about  1 1/4” cap screws do not give enough grip with the  extra thickness of the plate and Nordlok (4.5mm).
1 1/2” length will compensate for the extra 4.5mm.
I’ve sourced correct specification 12.9 high tensile cap screws in 1 3/4” length with a 14mm plain shank.
1 3/4” gives about 5mm clearance at the bottom of the thread.

Mick


> On 19 Feb 2021, at 00:02, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:
>
> I bought the kit last year and from this discussion the bolts supplied (1.25”) will not be long enough to engage sufficient threads. So I need 6 replacements of the 1.75” length. So whoever is finding a source please let me know or put me down for a set. Thx. George André. 3300 s/n 987
> Glandre@... , St Louis MO
>> On Feb 17, 2021, at 13:31, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>
>> Jay,
>> Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .
>>
>>
>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mick,
>>>
>>> The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>
>>> Jay,
>>> Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
>>> If I go 1 3/4” length,  it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
>>> So back to my questions :
>>> is a plain shank beneficial ?
>>> Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
>>> I’m thinking both are OK
>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.
>>>>
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
>>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>
>>>> Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
>>>> I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
>>>> Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
>>>> Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
>>>> The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are you located, Mick?  If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
>>>>> To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
>>>>> Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
>>>>> Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
>>>>> The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
>>>>> Mick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>






Mick O'Connor
 

George, 
That is stupidly cheap, what is the spec of these bolts (cap screws) ?
Mick

On 19 Feb 2021, at 17:48, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:

Found what I need at Fastenet, ordering by mail and all of 51 cents each. 
Now to remove the old ones that are glued in without breaking one off in the crankshaft. 
George

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 09:49:44 AM CST, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:


Have a look at these and see if you can find what you need.

 

https://www.fastenal.com/product/fasteners/sockets/socket-cap-screws/600040?categoryId=600040&level=3&isExpanded=true&productFamilyId=30892

 

Jay

 

From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Andre
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 6:49 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io; main@JabCamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

 

Jay, I have a couple of Fastenet dealers nearby so will try that, BUT, what exactly is the description? (size, head style, etc.) In my experience, one does not want to tell them it is for an airplane as they think this brings on some unwanted liability. In the past I have had to say it is for an experimental tractor I am building. thanks

George

 

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 02:43:12 AM CST, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909@...> wrote:

 

 

George,
You are correct about  1 1/4” cap screws do not give enough grip with the  extra thickness of the plate and Nordlok (4.5mm).
1 1/2” length will compensate for the extra 4.5mm.
I’ve sourced correct specification 12.9 high tensile cap screws in 1 3/4” length with a 14mm plain shank.
1 3/4” gives about 5mm clearance at the bottom of the thread.

Mick


> On 19 Feb 2021, at 00:02, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:
>
> I bought the kit last year and from this discussion the bolts supplied (1.25”) will not be long enough to engage sufficient threads. So I need 6 replacements of the 1.75” length. So whoever is finding a source please let me know or put me down for a set. Thx. George André. 3300 s/n 987
> Glandre@... , St Louis MO
>> On Feb 17, 2021, at 13:31, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>
>> Jay,
>> Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .
>>
>>
>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mick,
>>>
>>> The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>
>>> Jay,
>>> Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
>>> If I go 1 3/4” length,  it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
>>> So back to my questions :
>>> is a plain shank beneficial ?
>>> Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
>>> I’m thinking both are OK
>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.
>>>>
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
>>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>
>>>> Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
>>>> I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
>>>> Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
>>>> Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
>>>> The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are you located, Mick?  If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
>>>>> To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
>>>>> Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
>>>>> Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
>>>>> The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
>>>>> Mick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>






George Andre
 

Fastenet part number 23823, specs of ASTM A574, ASME B18-3, category 3. Not sure what all that means but it is surely better than from Home Depot.
Not carried in any local branches, but I registered on their site and can order by mail. As soon as I go to hangar and confirm mine are 5/16" I will order six or maybe a couple of spares. 
Open to any hints or warnings about removing the old bolts. I have the vacuum drive in the middle of my flywheel so I have to disengage it completely to insert the spacer between flywheel and crank.
George

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 11:51:48 AM CST, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909@...> wrote:


George, 
That is stupidly cheap, what is the spec of these bolts (cap screws) ?
Mick

On 19 Feb 2021, at 17:48, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:

Found what I need at Fastenet, ordering by mail and all of 51 cents each. 
Now to remove the old ones that are glued in without breaking one off in the crankshaft. 
George

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 09:49:44 AM CST, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:


Have a look at these and see if you can find what you need.

 

https://www.fastenal.com/product/fasteners/sockets/socket-cap-screws/600040?categoryId=600040&level=3&isExpanded=true&productFamilyId=30892

 

Jay

 

From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Andre
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 6:49 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io; main@JabCamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

 

Jay, I have a couple of Fastenet dealers nearby so will try that, BUT, what exactly is the description? (size, head style, etc.) In my experience, one does not want to tell them it is for an airplane as they think this brings on some unwanted liability. In the past I have had to say it is for an experimental tractor I am building. thanks

George

 

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 02:43:12 AM CST, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909@...> wrote:

 

 

George,
You are correct about  1 1/4” cap screws do not give enough grip with the  extra thickness of the plate and Nordlok (4.5mm).
1 1/2” length will compensate for the extra 4.5mm.
I’ve sourced correct specification 12.9 high tensile cap screws in 1 3/4” length with a 14mm plain shank.
1 3/4” gives about 5mm clearance at the bottom of the thread.

Mick


> On 19 Feb 2021, at 00:02, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:
>
> I bought the kit last year and from this discussion the bolts supplied (1.25”) will not be long enough to engage sufficient threads. So I need 6 replacements of the 1.75” length. So whoever is finding a source please let me know or put me down for a set. Thx. George André. 3300 s/n 987
> Glandre@... , St Louis MO
>> On Feb 17, 2021, at 13:31, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>
>> Jay,
>> Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .
>>
>>
>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mick,
>>>
>>> The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>
>>> Jay,
>>> Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
>>> If I go 1 3/4” length,  it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
>>> So back to my questions :
>>> is a plain shank beneficial ?
>>> Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
>>> I’m thinking both are OK
>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.
>>>>
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
>>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>
>>>> Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
>>>> I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
>>>> Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
>>>> Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
>>>> The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are you located, Mick?  If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
>>>>> To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
>>>>> Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
>>>>> Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
>>>>> The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
>>>>> Mick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>






Mick O'Connor
 

George, I was advised the key spec is 12.9.
I’ve just fitted the spacer/spreader washer with Nordloks. My screws came out reasonably easy without resorting to heat. I undid them firmly but slowly, no jerkiness. I cracked one and then undid opposites until all cracked, then removed them. I bought a 5/16 UNF 2nd tap and cleaned out the threads in the crank. You will need to remove the flywheel and then the vacuum drive. Carefully cut off the splined drive part about 2mm below flywheel level, be very careful not to disengage the crank gear as you lift the flywheel up. Mine had a roll pin that was a tight fit and it lifted the gear as I lifted the flywheel up.
Once you’ve cut off the drive spline off the vac drive, you replace  back in the flywheel as it acts as a spacer and it centres the flywheel.



On 19 Feb 2021, at 18:11, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:

Fastenet part number 23823, specs of ASTM A574, ASME B18-3, category 3. Not sure what all that means but it is surely better than from Home Depot.
Not carried in any local branches, but I registered on their site and can order by mail. As soon as I go to hangar and confirm mine are 5/16" I will order six or maybe a couple of spares. 
Open to any hints or warnings about removing the old bolts. I have the vacuum drive in the middle of my flywheel so I have to disengage it completely to insert the spacer between flywheel and crank.
George

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 11:51:48 AM CST, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909@...> wrote:


George, 
That is stupidly cheap, what is the spec of these bolts (cap screws) ?
Mick

On 19 Feb 2021, at 17:48, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:

Found what I need at Fastenet, ordering by mail and all of 51 cents each. 
Now to remove the old ones that are glued in without breaking one off in the crankshaft. 
George

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 09:49:44 AM CST, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:


Have a look at these and see if you can find what you need.

 

https://www.fastenal.com/product/fasteners/sockets/socket-cap-screws/600040?categoryId=600040&level=3&isExpanded=true&productFamilyId=30892

 

Jay

 

From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of George Andre
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 6:49 AM
To: main@jabcamit.groups.io; main@JabCamit.groups.io
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws

 

Jay, I have a couple of Fastenet dealers nearby so will try that, BUT, what exactly is the description? (size, head style, etc.) In my experience, one does not want to tell them it is for an airplane as they think this brings on some unwanted liability. In the past I have had to say it is for an experimental tractor I am building. thanks

George

 

On Friday, February 19, 2021, 02:43:12 AM CST, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909@...> wrote:

 

 

George,
You are correct about  1 1/4” cap screws do not give enough grip with the  extra thickness of the plate and Nordlok (4.5mm).
1 1/2” length will compensate for the extra 4.5mm.
I’ve sourced correct specification 12.9 high tensile cap screws in 1 3/4” length with a 14mm plain shank.
1 3/4” gives about 5mm clearance at the bottom of the thread.

Mick


> On 19 Feb 2021, at 00:02, George Andre <glandre@...> wrote:
>
> I bought the kit last year and from this discussion the bolts supplied (1.25”) will not be long enough to engage sufficient threads. So I need 6 replacements of the 1.75” length. So whoever is finding a source please let me know or put me down for a set. Thx. George André. 3300 s/n 987
> Glandre@... , St Louis MO
>> On Feb 17, 2021, at 13:31, Mick O'Connor via groups.io <mickoconnor909=btinternet.com@groups.io> wrote:
>>
>> Jay,
>> Wasn’t thinking anything, just that in my search for suitable flywheel bolts, I happened across some other options that may be an improvement or detriment or neutral, namely longer grip length and a shank .
>>
>>
>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 19:06, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Mick,
>>>
>>> The shank is irrelevant since the critical stress point is a thread that is not engaged, and that will be present whether shank or no shank. If you are thinking the shank will provide shear resistance, then if the bolt is in shear, the joint has already failed and it will fall off shortly anyway. The resistance to shear is in the clamping of the flywheel to the crank and that is a frictional force which is maintained by the preload of the bolts. 18mm sounds like that is enough engaged thread.
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 9:27 AM
>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>
>>> Jay,
>>> Forget about suppliers, I’ve found a supplier. The plain shank is only 8mm, so not an issue.
>>> If I go 1 3/4” length,  it will engage with 18mm of the 23mm depth of thread.
>>> So back to my questions :
>>> is a plain shank beneficial ?
>>> Is using 18mm of a 23mm thread OK ?
>>> I’m thinking both are OK
>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 16:14, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe you can buy the box of 200, then bag them up in 20's and sell them on ebay for a profit.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the joint goes, that's a critical area, Mick. You need at least 4 full threads engaged and the first thread inside the crank is usually chamfered, so doesn't count. The unthreaded bolt shank can be a minefield, if it travels into the threaded area, it will mess up your torque and other nastiness. The holes in the crank are not fully threaded to bottom, so there is that same issue there. I prefer the non-belleville version of the nordlock because they do not change the stiffness of the joint as they compress. Best to measure very carefully.
>>>>
>>>> Jay
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:57 AM
>>>> To: main@jabcamit.groups.io
>>>> Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>
>>>> Surrey in England. The local ones don’t hold the stock and the bigger suppliers will only supply in boxes of 200.
>>>> I have found a supplier but only with an 8mm shank.
>>>> Is a shank OK in our application and is it OK to go deep in the threads ?
>>>> Standard 1 1/4” bolts only go 11mm into the thread. If I add the spreader washer and Nord-Lock (5mm), standard won’t enough ‘grip’.
>>>> The thread depth is 23mm, lots of room
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 17 Feb 2021, at 15:39, Jay Scheevel <jay@...> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Where are you located, Mick?  If you have a Fastenal dealer near you, they will supply in small quantities for walk-in customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jay
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: main@JabCamit.groups.io <main@JabCamit.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mick O'Connor via groups.io
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 8:05 AM
>>>>> To: JabCamit <main@jabcamit.groups.io>
>>>>> Subject: [JabCamit] Flywheel cap screws
>>>>>
>>>>> Replacing my cap screws as im fitting a steel spreader washer and Nordloks.
>>>>> Struggling to find a fastened co. who will supply small quantities. Is there any reason not to fit longer screws that go further into the crankshaft ?
>>>>> The depth of the thread in the crank is about 22mm and a 1 3/4” cap screw will go 14mm into the crank thread. Also this cap screw has 8mm of plain shank .
>>>>> Mick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>