Date   

Re: Safety for Jab alternator

Pete Twissell
 

If fitting a lithium battery is producing over current issues, I would suggest fitting an appropriate regulator for the battery.
Lead acid batteries are quite resilient and will simply gas if over charged.
Lithium batteries can get nasty if the charge current and maximum voltage are not properly controlled.
Some "replacement" lithium batteries have a built in BMS (battery management system), but I have seen these fail.
The last thing any of us want is a lithium fire.
Pete.

On Tue, 4 May 2021, 19:44 Marc Halcomb, <marchalcomb@...> wrote:
Mark,
Over voltage is bad for the down stream items: EFIS, EIS, Comm/Nav radios, ... etc. and over current is bad for the up stream items, in this case the Jabiru stator.  I install the vertical power box in my build which has over voltage protection built in, and easy to configure and use.  But for over current I installed inline fuses for each stator lead.  I wish I would have run them to a resettable circuit breaker, but live and learn. :)

with my new EarthX battery, I find if I do not allow the battery time to mostly charger before WOT takeoff run, I will get an over current alarm, have not blown the fuses yet, but makes the EarthX battery a bit dodgy.


Re: Safety for Jab alternator

Rob Turk
 

Nothing dodgy about this. LiFePO4 batteries have much lower internal resistance than regular batteries. That helps for start as it can provide more starting current without sagging, but it also means that the charge current will be higher when it's partially empty and th alternator is providing max power.

On 5/4/2021 8:44 PM, Marc Halcomb wrote:
...

with my new EarthX battery, I find if I do not allow the battery time to mostly charger before WOT takeoff run, I will get an over current alarm, have not blown the fuses yet, but makes the EarthX battery a bit dodgy.


Re: Safety for Jab alternator

Marc Halcomb
 

Mark,
Over voltage is bad for the down stream items: EFIS, EIS, Comm/Nav radios, ... etc. and over current is bad for the up stream items, in this case the Jabiru stator.  I install the vertical power box in my build which has over voltage protection built in, and easy to configure and use.  But for over current I installed inline fuses for each stator lead.  I wish I would have run them to a resettable circuit breaker, but live and learn. :)

with my new EarthX battery, I find if I do not allow the battery time to mostly charger before WOT takeoff run, I will get an over current alarm, have not blown the fuses yet, but makes the EarthX battery a bit dodgy.


Re: Safety for Jab alternator

Max Witt
 
Edited

Has anyone used a Voltage/Current limiting regulator from a motorcycle? This is a common issue on some bikes, and has been for a long time. On my old sportster I used to have, the generator can put out 30-40 amps at freeway rev's, but the generator will burn out with over 10-15 amps. Other permanent magnet alternators have similar problems. 


Re: Safety for Jab alternator

Mark Dunstone
 

Jay, I agree that a part of the solution to the problem of burnt out stators is a better regulator and a fuse on the AC Input side.  But regulating voltage is not enough....it needs to limit current as well...particularly if your battery (lithium or lead) can absorb a charge current greater than the stator coil wiring can take.

I remain a little sceptical about the self resetting circuit breaker.  When you have an over-current situation it will switch off, then on again after it has cooled down, and then off again, etc, etc, etc, until the battery no longer takes a charge.  I don’t think they are designed for that.  And unless you are very observant of your voltage and charge current, you in the cockpit won’t be aware of the fault, perhaps not until the blue smoke comes out of tge resetting breaker.  That’s why I like a fuse....if the fuse blows, charge goes to zero, voltage drops to 13.something and you will notice and make an informed decision.  Unless you have EFI or an electrical cabin heater, you should have plenty of time to complete your flight or land at an alternative.


Safety for Jab alternator

Jay Scheevel
 

Just saw this in this month’s Sport aviation. Seems like a no brainer to add this and avoid a meltdown.

Jay


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

glen english LIST
 

geez their windings are pretty bloody awful


On 04/05/2021 05:15, Sonex 1517 via groups.io wrote:

I called Arion aircraft today and ordered two new stator assemblies (alternators). This is going to take a couple of weeks to get  

the part numbers in this thread seem to be for the voltage regulator. From what I can tell, there is not a third party replacement for the stator assembly  

I am considering re-winding the original one, but after removing it yesterday it seems to be very badly damaged. 

I’m installing an alternator cut out relay with an OVP, and putting a fuse in line also.


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

Ron Milan
 

Robbie:  Good photos!  Be sure to check the inside diameter of the permanent magnet field ring (bolted to the flywheel) for damage as well.  That stater definitely got very hot,  you will not go wrong with a total replacement.  

Ron M


-----Original Message-----
From: Sonex 1517 via groups.io <robbie_culver@...>
To: main@JabCamit.groups.io
Sent: Mon, May 3, 2021 3:15 pm
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

I called Arion aircraft today and ordered two new stator assemblies (alternators). This is going to take a couple of weeks to get  
the part numbers in this thread seem to be for the voltage regulator. From what I can tell, there is not a third party replacement for the stator assembly  
I am considering re-winding the original one, but after removing it yesterday it seems to be very badly damaged. 
I’m installing an alternator cut out relay with an OVP, and putting a fuse in line also. 


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

glen english LIST
 

The stator core is silicon - iron, it would be fine as long as it didnt go over 400C.

If you decide not to rewind, I would be happy to pay you for the cost of shipping it to me  (I'd get fedex to pick it up) .That would enable me to get a better handle on what can be done  for failure and uprating of Jab alternators.

Regards,

Glen.

On 4/05/2021 5:15 am, Sonex 1517 via groups.io wrote:

I called Arion aircraft today and ordered two new stator assemblies (alternators). This is going to take a couple of weeks to get

the part numbers in this thread seem to be for the voltage regulator. From what I can tell, there is not a third party replacement for the stator assembly

I am considering re-winding the original one, but after removing it yesterday it seems to be very badly damaged.

I’m installing an alternator cut out relay with an OVP, and putting a fuse in line also.


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

Sonex 1517
 

I called Arion aircraft today and ordered two new stator assemblies (alternators). This is going to take a couple of weeks to get  

the part numbers in this thread seem to be for the voltage regulator. From what I can tell, there is not a third party replacement for the stator assembly  

I am considering re-winding the original one, but after removing it yesterday it seems to be very badly damaged. 

I’m installing an alternator cut out relay with an OVP, and putting a fuse in line also. 


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

Nigel Stokes
 

I have followed this topic with keen interest as recently my Dynon has occasionally been exhibiting wildly fluctuating RPMs. I run a Gen3 3300 and have a pick-off wire from one of the alternator output wires via a 1A fuse; this has been reliable and accurate for 300+ hours. As suggested in this forum some time ago I replaced all the original spade connections with more workmanlike connectors which are showing no signs of distress.
I also noticed that on one sector the charging voltage after T/O was way up at about 14.8v for a while, as opposed to the more normal 14.2V.
The stator coils are all looking as new with no indication of overheating.
Are these indications of a possible failing of the originalJabiru provided VR ?
Nigel (Stokes)  UK


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

David Amsler
 

Got to my hangar today and confirmed my spare Jab VR is a Kubota RP201-53710.  (and made in Japan, not China.)

David A.

On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 9:35 AM David Amsler via groups.io <EnergyHawk=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
From a Roger Lewis file of some years ago he lists the Kabota number as:  RP201-53710 or 15531-64603.  I may have one in my hangar, will have to check and see if any number on it. but may be a couple of days.

David A.



On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 9:02 AM Sonex 1517 via groups.io <robbie_culver=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
I came up with a Jabiru part number 4P016A1D-1


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

Marc Halcomb
 

Thanks for the input Ron, I have install the EarthX ETX680 LiFePO4 battery.  I have a battery minder and will now keep the charge up and confirm I have no further issues.  I had been using the battery quite a bit, before the WOT ground run.  


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

Mark Dunstone
 

Glen, one would think the field would collapse before a meltdown current if designed correctly.  But I think in an effort to get positive charging at lowest rpm (ie. increased winding turns with smaller diameter wire) the alternator is able to over-current/self destroy at higher rpm...at least with the very basic Kubota VR.  The few firewall forward fires in Jab aircraft are evidence this is a real risk that sometimes materialises.  A pity Jabiru decided to blame lithium batteries instead of their preferred VR and an unprotected AC charging circuit.  In my view the weight saving, better starter motor current, & less discharge while sitting unused (ie. none of the rigmarole of connecting trickle chargers) of lithium batteries is well worth the added investment of a good voltage and current regulator.

On Mon, 3 May 2021 at 05:18, glen english LIST <glenlist@...> wrote:
To me, that damaged alternator stator looks like it has had battery
current in it. I'd be surprised if the alternator alone could make that
much heat.  either that or they used low temperature insulation on the
windings instead of the correct stuff.

I'd be replacing the regulator, and  installing a 20A CB on the firewall
in both lines to the stator. (not on the spider).


On 3/05/2021 1:03 am, David Amsler wrote:
> I used the EarthEx 900, which was their highest capacity that fit in
> the same space as the old Odyssey PC680.  Might have been slightly
> better with one size smaller.
>






Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

glen english LIST
 

To me, that damaged alternator stator looks like it has had battery current in it. I'd be surprised if the alternator alone could make that much heat.  either that or they used low temperature insulation on the windings instead of the correct stuff.

I'd be replacing the regulator, and  installing a 20A CB on the firewall in both lines to the stator. (not on the spider).

On 3/05/2021 1:03 am, David Amsler wrote:
I used the EarthEx 900, which was their highest capacity that fit in the same space as the old Odyssey PC680.  Might have been slightly better with one size smaller.


Re: Throw over clutch starting to fail on new Gen 4 ALREADY

John Miller
 

After 1.5 months I finally got a replacement throw-over clutch and am happy to report Jabiru has changed back to the better quality Honda part.

Nick dropped the ball when I called about the failure of the part. He said he would take car of getting out a replacement pert.

Best to work with Cindy. She will get the job done.

John M


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

David Amsler
 

I used the EarthEx 900, which was their highest capacity that fit in the same space as the old Odyssey PC680.  Might have been slightly better with one size smaller.

Over current on charging was one concern.  Typical flywheel alternator which I have on my CAMit, does not charge at all until about 1,500 RPM, and that is with a series wound alternator, the old parallel wound of my previous jab 3300 required even higher RPMs.  Result with a lithium battery is that the battery acts almost like a short circuit as it tries to recover the charge lost at startup and during taxi operation as soon as one goes to WOT and overcurrent is the result.    The old lead batteries charge much more slowly. Jabiru has issued a couple of service bulletins on this issue.  I never had an overvoltage problem with either type battery and have a crowbar that has never tripped.

The EarthEx 900 gave one heck of a kick when starting, and since my early (ser. # 0004) CAMit does not have the large center bolt in flywheel connection, that big kickk was a concern for life of the flywheel connector bolts.

The problem that finally resulted in my giving up on the lithium battery was that each spring, after a long cold winter, i would get a flashing warning light from the earthEX battery about 15 -20 minutes into flight, no amount of ground recharging resolved this, and EarthEX did replace it twice, but I unloaded the last replacement and its approved charger before using it.

Like you, the weight saving from the EarthEx was significant.  I added a 4 pound (1.8 KG) weight to the tail when going back to the old Odyssey so as to stay within the aerobatic center of gravity limits, solo, which resulted in a total weight gain of about 15 pounds (6.7 KG)

David A.


On Sun, May 2, 2021 at 10:18 AM Marc Halcomb <marchalcomb@...> wrote:
David,
Your comment about lithium batteries, which one did you try?  I just purchased an EarthX to replace my Odyssey, the difference in weight is close to my superchargers installation weight.  Clearly I need additional considerations on the charging path, my first ground run up with the EarthX installed resulted in an over current alarm, but not an over voltage one.  I shutdown immediately without incident.

Marc


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

Ron Milan
 

Marc/All:  I have been running/using a Deltran "Battery Tender: LiFeSO4 battery in my 3300A powered SONEX  for ~ 3 years+ now with NO issues.  I made NO modifications to my charging system to facilitate the installation and have suffered NO ill fate.   I removed 10+ lbs from the plane with the swap, (ODYSSEY PC680 prior), and I was able to reduce the size of the battery box as well.   The plane starts well, seems to have adequate cranking reserve and shows a charging voltage between 13.5-14.2, engine rpm and equipment load dependent.  The battery does have VERY low internal resistance so it charges quickly.  These batteries also have the advantage of minimal parasitic loss over time.  I do use a battery tender but more for the reason of "just in case I in inadvertently leave on the master---:"  

Your mileage and results may vary but so far so good---my experience.

Ron M  

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Halcomb <marchalcomb@...>
To: main@JabCamit.groups.io
Sent: Sun, May 2, 2021 10:18 am
Subject: Re: [JabCamit] Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

David,
Your comment about lithium batteries, which one did you try?  I just purchased an EarthX to replace my Odyssey, the difference in weight is close to my superchargers installation weight.  Clearly I need additional considerations on the charging path, my first ground run up with the EarthX installed resulted in an over current alarm, but not an over voltage one.  I shutdown immediately without incident.

Marc


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

Jay Scheevel
 

I have two EarthX 680’s and an external B&C 40 amp alternator. I get close to 40amps current after take off with probably close to 30 of that going to the batteries. No problem after 3 years, so they can soak it up as fast as they give it with no harm as long as voltage is in range you are good (wrt the battery anyway). That’s not to say your alternator won’t suffer overheating though. 

My suggestion would be to shave the regulator voltage down to below 14 V and this will reduce the current flowing to the battery. The battery takes between 13.2 -13.4 minimum to charge (low current draw). The higher the voltage the more current draw.

Jay


On May 2, 2021, at 8:18 AM, Marc Halcomb <marchalcomb@...> wrote:

David,
Your comment about lithium batteries, which one did you try?  I just purchased an EarthX to replace my Odyssey, the difference in weight is close to my superchargers installation weight.  Clearly I need additional considerations on the charging path, my first ground run up with the EarthX installed resulted in an over current alarm, but not an over voltage one.  I shutdown immediately without incident.

Marc


Re: Alternator part number for Gen 4 Jabiru 3300

Marc Halcomb
 

David,
Your comment about lithium batteries, which one did you try?  I just purchased an EarthX to replace my Odyssey, the difference in weight is close to my superchargers installation weight.  Clearly I need additional considerations on the charging path, my first ground run up with the EarthX installed resulted in an over current alarm, but not an over voltage one.  I shutdown immediately without incident.

Marc

521 - 540 of 15365